How come we haven’t heard more of Bohemian Grove?
It can become more famous. I’ve sold the film rights to Them: Adventures with Extremists. But in America they don’t consider these things very strange. Most posh universities have secret societies and quaint rituals that he students take part in. Bohemian Grove is the same thing, but for grown-ups with a couple of extra zeros at the end of their payslip. Another reason it isn’t more famous is that the media owners themselves are members of these societies. My book reveals how I got into these secret societies, and several newspaper editors told me that they couldn’t publish any extracts from it. They didn’t want to reveal any of this.
Going back to the time when First Earth Battalion was first written and distributed, were there any more interesting methods?
Yes. First I found out that people had been trying to walk through walls. Then I discovered the staring at goats. A special unit in Fort Bragg in North Carolina tried to kill a goat by staring at it. Guy Savelli, a martial arts instructor from Ohio, was contacted by Pentagon to demonstrate his skills and teach soldiers how to stare animals to death.
Did he succeed?
I met Guy a year ago and he told me how he was called to Fort Bragg and that they lined up thirty goats and numbered them. Guy started staring at goat number sixteen and suddenly goat number seventeen fell down dead.
So he didn’t succeed?
People seemed to think he did succeed, they thought it was enough evidence. I called Guy the other week and asked me if he is still practicing his skill. He told me he accidentally stared his hamster to death the other week.
How do you know that these people aren’t just taking the mickey of you?
Because many people told the same story. People who don’t know each other. So it was easy to double-check the stories. I met a lieutenant in Hawaii that told me about the goat staring, and then I met a colonel, John Alexander, one of Al Gore’s best friends and who is very influential in the military, and he told me the same story. There’s not a chance that the guy in Hawaii could have called John Alexander and said, “I’ve just made up a funny little story about how the military stares at goats – do you think you could confirm it?” Not a chance.
But everything in your book sounds like madness.
Yes, but it makes sense when you understand how they think.
But there must have been loads of rational commanders as well, that questioned what these people were doing.
Yes, but the funny thing is that those who disliked these things didn’t do so because they were more rational in their thinking. Instead, they thought it was the work of the Devil. That was what the options were! You either believed in superhuman powers and thought it was great, or you were a Christian fundamentalist and considered everything the work of the Devil.
When you met people like Guy Savelli, what was your impression of him?
You mean, did he seem crazy? He was a fundamentalist. I don’t believe Guy can kill a goat by staring at it. But I think Guy thinks he can. And I know that many of the big shots in Pentagon think he can. They still hire Guy from time to time. He is flown to Fort Bragg on a regular basis to stare at goats and hamsters.
At what level was this known?
In the military this was known at the highest level. I don’t know if the president knew. However, I do know that the president knew about the so-called psychic spies. That’s also an interesting story. There was one group of psychic spies in Fort Meade in Maryland. They were clairvoyant. They worked in that building for 23 years, and Bush, Reagan and Carter knew about it. Bill Clinton put an end to it.
How did they work?
I’ve interviewed a couple of psychic spies and they told me it was horrible. Their operations were never official. Officially speaking the building they worked in didn’t even exist. For instance, they weren’t allowed to have a coffee machine, because how could you write in the list of inventories that there was a coffee machine in a building that didn’t exist? They had to live in a crap house in the countryside. As hidden away as possible.
Was this a large operation?
Absolutely. This went on for two decades. $20 million were spent. It was part of the military defence’s black budget money, the Pentagon didn’t have to account for. One of the spies told me about a door that had jammed. One day it was really hot inside the building and someone suggested that they kick the door in so they could have some fresh air, but they soon realised it wasn’t such a good idea, because they wouldn’t be able to get the door fixed afterwards – the house didn’t exist. The atmosphere turned sour, until one of the spies, a guy named Joe McMoneagle said “Hang on guys, I’ll fix this.” He went off and when he returned to the room he had managed to make a drawing of the key using the power of thought. He had a copy made by a locksmith and they could finally unlock the door”.
So it worked?
The man who told this story said, “Joe was really good, he was the best spy in the division”. Later, when I met Joe, I asked him about the story and he blushed a little and told me that he had actually made the drawing of the key using a special kind of paper. But the atmosphere in the office had been bad for quite some time and he didn’t want to ruin it when people were in a good mood for once.
What were psychic spies used for? Did they have important military tasks?
Jimmy Carter was a big fan of paranormal stuff and during his presidency they sometimes planned military operations based on information given by the spies. And before invading Panama in 1989 they wanted to break into Manuel Noriega’s president palace to install bugging equipment, so they had psychic spies trying to figure out where in the palace Noriega was, and when they had the feeling that he was asleep, the agents were meant to go in and quickly place a microphone.
How have the ideas from the First Earth Battalion aged?
Many of the people that were part of the developing of the ideas of The First Earth Battalion are military big shots today. Pete Schoomaker for example, that is highest HR Director in the US Army, is very open to these ideas.
In what ways do we see these thoughts materialise today?
In many ways. Non-lethal weapons, for example. Jim Channon’s big contribution was to encourage the military to come up with kind alternatives to weapons. Weapons that would lead to peace, not war. There are countless examples, many of them very elaborate and colourful. The gay bomb for example. They were going to drop a gas bomb that would make the enemy gay. So everyone would be snogging when the Americans came to conquer the country.
Did they go ahead with it?
No, but they did a lot of investigation about it. But mainly, the ideas about music as a form of torture have really had an impact. Music has been used in different ways during centuries of war, but today’s usage has its roots in the First Earth Battalion. In Iraq they lined up the prisoners and played I Love You from the soundtrack of Barney the Purple Dinosaur as part of the torture. They played it on repeat. “I love you – you love me…” I met the composer of the music in Sesame Street, that was also used on prisoners. He tried to get royalties. He reckoned he should get ten cent every time his music was played in Guantanamo Bay or Abu Ghraib. The whole thing seems silly, playing children’s songs as torture, but I suppose it works well.
But the idea behind First Earth Battalion wasn’t to torture the enemy, but to be kind.
Yes, it seems that when the American army recovered after the Vietnam War, they discovered that some of Channon’s ideas could be used to hurt people instead of the opposite. Music has been used everywhere – it’s certainly a popular form of torture. I met a British guy who had been released from Guantanamo Bay, Jamal al-Harith, and he told me he had been exposed to Fleetwood Mac and Kris Kristofferson.
Was it painful?
I guess so. In Waco, when the FBI besieged David Koresh’s sect in 1993, they dug out Nancy Sinatra’s These Boots are Made for Walkin’. Places like these are like experimental labs. Ideas like Jim Channon’s First Earth Battalion circle around in the military like loose thoughts, and it’s quite unusual to be in a situation where they can actually put them into practice and try them out. When something like Waco, Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib happens, it’s like Christmas. Suddenly they can try all these things for real. I asked Jamal al-Harith what it felt like to be a prisoner in Guantanamo. He said it felt like being a guinea pig.
Right now the American military find themselves in a situation similar to the one after the Vietnam War – the war in Iraq has been going on for a long time, the money is running out and the search for weapons of mass destruction has failed. What will this lead to?
The irony is that has led to the latest crisis in the American military, all the torture in Abu Ghraib and Guantanomo Bay, is the further development of Jim Channon’s ideas. Obviously you can’t prove that the images of Abu Ghraib are directly linked. My theory is that the pictures were hardly taken as a joke; it was a thought-out way of controlling the prisoners, and that’s the sort of things that emerged from Channon’s think tanks. The purpose in those days was to influence the enemy in a positive way, but it can be those same ideas that have been transformed into this. I don’t have enough evidence to claim this in the book, but that’s what I think.
What has the American military said about your book?
They haven’t commented on it. Many of the people I interviewed in the book, like Guy Savelli, who stared at goats, and Jim Channon, who was the one that started the whole thing, and Peter Brusso, that put many of Channon’s ideas into practice, have all said that everything I have written is true. The people in the book all think that it makes them justice. The top commanders in the military, on the other hand, haven’t said a word. But I’ve written the book in a light-hearted manner, maybe that’s why I’m not as threatening as other journalists can be.
Yes, that’s true, the book is very entertaining. But in a way, it’s pity – if it wasn’t so lightweight perhaps the revelations could have made it to the front pages?
Maybe. But that’s just the way I write.
Were you even scared to make too much of a hoo-ha of the whole thing? There must be people who dislike the fact that you’re uncovering this story?
No, I wasn’t scared. Perhaps the impact of the book would have been another if it had been on a more serious note, but it wouldn’t have been as fun to read.
What reaction did you get in the US?
Positive reactions. The only thing that bothers me is that some people seem to think that I’ve made the whole thing up, but if I had, I would have been taken to court by now, and I haven’t.
But it’s a legitimate question. Why should we believe you?
It’s all documented. The people in the book all exist. You can’t make up a story about real people. Besides, I’ve filmed all of it. I did a TV version of the book for Channel 4, a series called Crazy Rulers of the World. So there’s evidence.
Should we be afraid? I mean, if the world is ruled by a bunch of crazy people?
But we’re all crazy. Funnily enough, I find this story quiet comforting, because it shows that the rulers of the world are just as nuts as we are. I used to think our leaders were wiser and more rational than the rest of us. The fact that they are, in the best of cases, as crazy as we are, is naturally a bit frightening, but also comforting. In a way, this book is a completely crazy conspiracy theory, and its thesis that people are trying to use occultism to exercise their power. But the result is that commanders break their noses and goats almost fall down dead. It’s quite sweet really.
But these ideas are used to torture people. This is serious!
Yes, not everyone seems to believe you can carry around lambs instead of guns, but in a way I think of the book as a tribute to the American army. The general image of American soldiers is that of heartless thugs, and this undeniably shows an altogether different image. I could have written my book as an attack on the US, but I’m not a very good polemist, I’m not that kind of journalist.
What was the purpose of your book?
To show in what an absurd manner people behave, and thereby making them more human. Regardless if the person in question is a president or a terrorist, I think it is easier to relate to them when you realise that they, just like ourselves, don’t always behave rationally. But no one else sees the book in the same way, haha, all they see is the madness, but that wasn’t the intention.
Jon Ronson writes for The Guardian newspaper. His books Them: Adventures with Extremists and The Men Who Stare at Goats, can be found in or ordered from well-assorted bookshops. Both books are also to be dramatised.
www.jonronson.com
